Canberra, 31 July – 1 August 1969
Confidential
P.N.G. constitutional committee
[ matter omitted ]
31St July—Commenced 9:50A.M.
Mr. Johnson
• thought Arek would be elected Chairman. Probably the most radical members of Committee were Arek, Somare and Olewale but none of these were really radical unless roused.
• The Secretary of the Committee needed to be carefully chosen as he would have an important role.
• agreed with the Secretary that it would be useful, and also flattering if Committee members could talk with the Minister at.an early stage.
• anticipated an early proposal for the Committee to visit other countries possibly in two parties and that the suggestion would not be unpopular with Territory people.
The Secretary
• thought M.M.s might benefit from talks and a look around Australia, ostensibly on other business (e.g. P.M.G. might invite Giregire; Toliman for consultations with Education; Abal to Agriculture).
Mr. Johnson
• thought Committee members would be keen to be seen to be doing something.
• doubted whether Committee peregrinations would commence before early 1970.
The Secretary
• thought Committee should take early look at operation of present system,
• plenty of scope exists under present constitution,
• Section 252 could take Territory a long way towards self-government
- M.M.s could be given full powers subject to Administrator but Administrator could abstain, giving effect of self government.
Mr. Ballard
• said M.M.s not exercising powers they already have,
• existing arrangements should be made known to Committee.
Mr. Johnson
• thought Committee should examine operation of M.M. system.
• I.D.C.C. might become advisory body to A.E.C. which is not geared to substitute for it.
The Secretary
• saw value in a clearing committee something like German system,3
• might disband I.D.C.C. and have small group looking at policies like interdepartmental committee here,
• if I.D.C.C. arose as a question, no loss in giving it away as it could be replaced by more flexible and less formal approach.
Mr. Johnson
• thought I.D.C.C. could be executive or administrative arm of A.E.C.,
• more advisory and less executive than former C.P.P.C.
The Secretary
• inquired as to possibilities of a reshuffle of portfolios over the next couple of years.
Mr. Johnson
• thought M.M.s were fairly firmly placed but A.M.M.s were less secure,
• there has been no talk of reshuffling M.M.s,
• Oala Rarua might withdraw to be politically active,
• A.M.M. operation has been unsuccessful because calibre of incumbents poor, duties not well defined, and some members illiterate,
• saw disappearance of A.M.M.s as possibility. over next two years.
• jealousy exists among A.M.M.s towards M.M.s.
Mr. Ballard
• said it had been envisaged all ministerial office holders would support Government but support has come from A.M.M.s to a much lesser extent than from M.M.s.
• M.M.s had been kept out of reserved fields.
Mr. Johnson
• thought M.M.s need not have whole departments
- these might be split.
The Secretary
• wondered whether it would be better to expose ministerial office holders to all areas
- the more responsibilities the better
- if M.M.s cannot accept policies, review policies.
• arguments for keeping reserved subjects are not obvious and perhaps matter should be reviewed.
- if matter of reserved areas is queried, the Government would have to look at it.
Mr. Johnson
• suggested having 15 M.M.s and no A.M.M.s in two years time.
• might result in less frequent formal meetings of A.E.C.
Mr. Ballard
• raised the question of an M.M. for Treasury.
The Secretary
• said M.M.s must eventually face up to the extent the Department and the Minister are involved in the budget.4
• The sooner they get to grips with the financial arrangements the better.
• There are bound to be problems and if a workable alternative exists it should be examined.
• Treasury poses greater difficulties than other portfolios
• split budget presents problems
- expatriate allowances might with political advantage be taken out and make one-line salary system more real5
- if more items of this kind found, split budget would be advantageous.
Mr. Johnson
• Split budget might be achieved in three stages
- remove expatriates
- specified works programme
- specific projects.
• If each department had an M.M., any reduction in expatriates could be queried with M.M. concerned.
Secretary
• Select Committee should prepare charter
- important things must be done for good of country even if unpopular.
- prerequisites for self government or independence,
- electors must realise M.M.s must be in Port Moresby to help run government and therefore cannot be in electorates.
Mr. Johnson
• Political need exists to be seen to be doing something
- first report needed early saying what is to be done, when and how.
The Secretary
• Maori Kiki did harm in Australia giving impression Australian aid was not really wanted or appreciated.6
• Some appreciation needed
- Committee could do this.
Mr. Johnson
• Some 50 speakers during budget debate will start by thanking the Government for its aid.
• Somare is certain to bring up target dates and other major issues at early date.
- position needed on major issues.
Secretary
• Wondered whether Second Chamber would be seriously considered7
- would need to go to Cabinet on this and also any regional electorate changes.
- asked what other issues might arise heeding approach to Cabinet.
Mr. Johnson
• Second Chamber would slow up legislation.
Mr. Littler
• Some areas would wish to retain regional electorates to bring in indigenes.
Mr. Johnson
• If regional electorates retained preferred educated indigenes to expatriates representing regions but Administration would rather be without regional electorates.
- opinion could favour retention, or a Second Chamber.
• Was concerned in case strong pressure exerted for federal structure,
• Favoured unicameral legislature with regional representation as two Houses unjustified in impoverished country.
• Legislation could be slowed down if Administrator given administrative powers to return legislation to House.
Mr. Ballard
• Mentioned U.N. criticism of failure of local government in urban areas.
- asked would urban councils lead to regionalisation.
Mr. Johnson
• Urban councils would be expatriate enclaves manned by expatriates with self interests.
The Secretary
• House of Assembly tends to deal summarily with things
- emotionalism arises and affects votes with little consideration being given to real issues.
- advantages exist in talking out until consensus achieved.
• Minister thought Second House should have no M.M.s but with three or four officials for explanations.
• Three aspects need examination.
- consensus
- regional electorates
- indirect election process.
• Indirect election should produce more conservative attitude in House.
- different category of member would arise.
• Second Chamber would not just delay legislation
- could debate issues
- may help reduce insularity and detachment.
Mr. Johnson
• Said similar sentiments expressed when Senate formed.
• Best local government men would in any case rise to Lower House and second best would go to Second Chamber.
• Growth of political parties would lead to support in Upper House.
• Questioned whether Upper House would be more conservative than Lower House.
• Saw equally valid arguments either way concerning an Upper House.
- if Territory accepts a Second Chamber, go ahead
- if not, idea should not be sold.
Mr. Littler
• Many M.H.A.s derive from Local Government Councils and are replaced in L.G.C. by their political opponents
- Second Chamber would reflect this.
Mr. Johnson
• General feeling is that official members should be retained.
Mr. Ballard
• Saw M.M.s with parochial responsibilities and officials filling gaps and supporting M.M.s, gradually giving way to them.
Mr. Kelloway
• Thought committees idea had merit.
Mr. Johnson
• Independent Group is against committees
- thought Select Committee on Procedures report covering these8 would be rejected.
The Secretary
• It is convenient for officials to take reserved subjects but desirable for there to be no officials.
(Adjournment 11.45 a.m. to 2.40 p.m.)
Secretary
• Referring to previous Select Committee, said attitude of officials was never discussed.
Mr. Johnson
• Saw new Committee as being different, not so receptive to suggestions from officials.
- officials should participate but not take initiative
- good brief needed for officials
- offer of Executive Officer (Secretary) should be made to Committee at first meeting on 15th August.
The Secretary
• Promised follow up with A.G.’s re Secretary.
• Thought officials could present papers to Committee or suggest Secretary could write up for Committee.
Mr. Johnson
• Expected the Committee would have well attended meetings with the public, with strong speeches if meetings advertised.
• Statehood requests were likely from the islands.
- Papuans would not desperately oppose
• Bougainville would accept statehood now with independence later.
- although some residents there demand independence now, they probably mean they want independence when the copper project is operating.
• Highlanders too may accept statehood now.
• Only proponents for unity would appear to be Papuans and some coastal people.
The Secretary
• On the brief for official members of Committee, said it need not be as elaborate as previously.
• Minister wants conservatism injected into situation
- indirect elections would help.
• Issues appear to be clear but need to know what to go to Government on
- can go on Second Chamber and regional electorates but Government should not force if no climate of acceptance exists.
• Arrangements under Section 259 could be settled with Minister but advantage seen in discussions between members of Select Committee and Ministers.
Mr. Johnson
• Thought expansion of the ministerial system might have possibilities after two years.
• Ministers might find timetable difficult.
• Thought self government likely by 1976.
The Secretary
• Thought Government would not accept timetable.
Mr. Johnson
• Suggested fixing stages of development
- Territory to contribute proportion of budget
- localisation of public service.
• Thought one issue to be presented would be presidential system with criticism of Westminster system.
The Secretary
• Minister’s view is that Ministers must have electoral base.
- appointees do not face electors.
- in any case nominated Ministers are unlikely to be better than elected Minister.
• Opponents of present system fail to show how other system is better.
Mr. Ballard
• Thought B.S.l.P. committees system should be watched.10
Mr. Johnson
• Thought growth of political parties is against B.S.I.P. system in T.P.N.G.
• Said another issue will be disallowance powers.
The Secretary
• Thought Committee should be told veto is necessary part of administration.
- it should talk to Ministers about this.
• Steering Committee on bills might have advantages.
Mr. Johnson
• Committees suggested by Select Committee on Procedures could be beginning of a Steering Committee.
The Secretary
• One basic problem is the taking for granted of large aid programme.
- Committee must realise climate in Australia could change
- should avoid giving grounds for press to report antagonism in Territory against Australia.
Mr. Johnson
• Thought only the Chairman of Committee should issue statements and then only after clearance by Committee.
• On the question of a flag and name, nothing further has been done so far but Committee could look into this early.
• Thought sub-committees could be formed, one for flag and one for name.
- referendum unlikely
- Committee could report to House which would pass to Councils
- if favourable, could be adopted by resolution of House.
The Secretary
• Flag and name will be included in Cabinet Submission.
Mr. Ballard
• Expressed concern about questions on notice about areas outside jurisdiction of the House of Assembly
- should remain on notice paper until cleared by Canberra.
Mr. Johnson
• Agreed some questions need to be cleared but thought credibility would be lost if straightforward questions were dodged
- disliked leaving questions on notice paper.
The Secretary
• Thought position should be explained to Defence pointing out need for quick answers.
Adjourned 4.5[0] P.M. TO 10.20 A.M. 1St August, 1969.
Mr. Johnson
• On the M.M. system, thought no M.M.s should be dropped now as all are fairly powerful politically.
- reshuffling could be done by Administrator.
• M.M.s do not criticise policy nor raise parochial issues.
• Thought A.M.M.s generally fed-up but Administrator believed need existed for them.
• M.M.s need not be equated to Departments but rather to functions.
The Secretary
• Wondered whether central government operating from Lae may be more acceptable than Moresby
- central government more likely to exacerbate than contain pressures for regionalisation.
- some degree of regionalisation may relieve pressures.
• Unwise remove Papua – New Guinea boundary while Territory under Australian administration.
Mr. Johnson
• Saw need to be clear on limit to which central government can be contained before acceding to pressures.
The Secretary
• Thought Committee could recognize certain of the Commonwealth bodies in the Territory.
Mr. Johnson
• Felt D.C.A. intruded on a self governing body.
The Secretary
• Saw technical problems as the basis for D.C.A. presence.
• Would like to see proposition that we see nothing wrong in Select Committee saying these technical bodies should be brought within the umbrella of the Territory in the next few years.
- for, example, start could be made on Shipping and Transport.
- technical manpower and administration arrangements problems need resolving.
• D.C.A. presents special problem because of its expenditure in Territory.
Mr. Johnson
• Would like greater consultation between D.C.A. and Administration on routes, rates, safety regulations; etc.
• Need existed for phasing out Commonwealth departments
- firstly concurrence
- secondly, function as agency of Administration
- finally indigenisation.
Discussion ensued on Mr. Johnson’s paper ‘Issues for discussion and progression’.11
Mr. Johnson
• Thought Deputy Chairman of Committee needs to be European (but not a planter) to advise and guide Arek.
- possibly Leahy.
The Secretary
• (re possible amendments to Act to increase number of M.M.s). Thought timing presented problem.
- change in 1970 might be too early.
Mr. Johnson
• Committee unlikely to submit first report until middle 1970.
- if it proposed increase in M.M.s at expense of A.M.M.s, Government agreement would bring it credit.
• By 1972, Committee’s major report would have reached Government which by then would have positive position.
The Secretary
• Government view is that ineffective government would result from haste, but if people want Australia out it would get out.
• Critics see situation as perpetuation of colonial system.
• Radicals react to suggestions to go slowly.
• Answer is that Government stays while it’s wanted but no reason why imperceptible switch might12 be pursued as means of beating radicals’ campaign.
Mr. Ballard
• Said that while Cabinet will not commit itself on aid after independence, it seems clear nature of aid will change.
The Secretary
• (re Second Chamber) said main question seemed to be direct or indirect election.
Mr. Kelloway
• Said academics and press criticised indirect elections
- Local Government Association is already powerful
- raising its status by making it part of Second Chamber was not good idea.
Mr. Johnson
• Favoured district representatives but unless educational qualifications were eliminated this would be regarded as retaining expatriate control.
- plenty of candidates would be forthcoming if indigenes elected at large.
Mr. Littler
• Thought an age limit might have advantages
- would produce mature candidates rather than young educated men.
The Secretary
• Saw little benefit in a Second Chamber without indirect election as the Upper House would merely duplicate the Lower House.
• Thought Second House need not necessarily be elected by Local Government Councils but the latter are the only organized bodies.
Mr. Ballard
• Thought selection by Government or indirect election by Councils were only alternatives.
Mr. Johnson
• Thought costs of a Second Chamber need not be substantial
- same staff and building and services could be used.
The Secretary
• Saw elimination of regional members as offsetting part of costs of Second Chamber.
Some recapitulation of various points followed.
The Secretary
• Would like another meeting before end of August but realised House was meeting on 20th.
Mr. Johnson
• Thought House would adjourn for few days over weekend 28th/29th for Mt. Hagen Show
- attempt is likely to hold Committee meeting while House meeting.
Secretary
• Promised to send papers
- hoped to arrange talk again in mid-September.
Meeting closed 4 p.m.
[NAA: A452, 1969/3605]
1 The talks were attended by the official members of the Select Committee—Johnson and Littler—and Warwick Smith, Ballard, Kelloway, Kerr and Vizard.
2 See editorial note ‘Changes to the Papua and New Guinea Act’.
3 In the federal legislature of the Federal Republic of Germany (the Bundestag), most legislative groundwork and revision was managed by standing committees.
4 In a later note to Ballard, Warwick Smith wrote: ‘The Administration should make sure that they say quite clearly and firmly in the House of Assembly, if they get an opportunity … that the House … is not competent to direct the Administration to do anything—much less direct it to do something involving expenditure’ (NAA: NA 1983/239, 49/7).
5 See footnote 2, Document 158.
6 See footnote 2, Document 276.
7 With reference to Documents 258 and 284, the Administration had in late June been asked to ‘consider whether the powers and functions mentioned in the notes appear to be adequate, too great or fall short of a practical level for an Upper House’ (memorandum, DOET (Warwick Smith) to Administration, 27 June 1969, NAA: A452, 1969/1135).
8 See footnote 16, Document 300.
9 See Document 197.
10 Britain’s interim proposals on constitutional development for the Protectorate included abolition of the Executive and Legislative Councils and formation of a ‘single Council with legislative and executive functions with a series of committees with executive powers to supervise the departments’. Committee members would be drawn from the single council (‘Interim proposals on constitutional development’, Legislative Council paper 119 of 1968, 4 December 1968, NAA: A1838, 317/1 part 2).
11 Not printed.
12 Context suggests the word ‘not’ may have been omitted here.