Canberra, 8–9 December 1969
Confidential
Select Committee on Constitutional Development2
[matter omitted]
8TH DECEMBER 1969
Mr. Johnson —Basically a very conservative committee
- Toliman
- Giregire
- Yuwi
- Middleton
- Leahy
- Abal—All conservative
- Olewale
- Somare
- Arek—All radical
- Mola
- Lussick
- Oala-Rarua—All fence sitters
- Problem will be to produce a report sufficiently forward looking
- Morrison at this stage not fulfilled expectations3
- A good idea for assistant to executive officer
- Need assistant who is prepared to stay in the Territory most of the time
Mr. Ballard
- Better your man rather than Morrison’s man
Secretary
- Perhaps some sort of liaison officer
Mr. Johnson
- Have some difficulty with this idea as it most desirable to get assistant into committee meetings
Secretary
- Perhaps we could get a lawyer to plug a hole in Crown Law and release an Administration officer. I have heard of one from W.A. who may become available.
- We’ll see if something can be done on this
Next Committee Meeting (i.e. December ’69)
Mr. Johnson
- Prime object to come up with something to talk to Minister about
- Functions under Section 254 be of major interest
- See a good deal of room for manoeuvre within this section
- Particularly re A.M.M.’s who have justifiable dis-satisfaction
Secretary
- Because they are not in A.E.C. or not have sufficient work in Departments?
Mr. Johnson
- They are second strings in Departments in three cases
Secretary
- Could discontinue A.M.M. where M.M.’s already in Departments
Mr. Johnson
- Lue in technical education most dis-satisfied
- Could perhaps be someone in law e.g. corrective institutions
Mr. Ballard
- Deliberately not put Police in Department of Law
Mr. Johnson
- The right person in Police as M.M. or A.M.M. would be O.K. Perhaps also:
Mining
Law
Social Development
D.I.E.S.
- A.M.M.’s should be invited to A.E.C. more frequently
- Only Oala-Rarua attended A. E. C. very much
- Would prefer all to be Ministers with inner and outer Cabinet structure
Secretary
- Do they do enough in Departments?
Mr. Johnson
- Varies greatly in Departments according to ability
- Need a Class 8–10 to look after them and [there is] a shortage of such persons
- M.M.’s reasonably happy and well cared for
- A.M.M.’s would feel demeaned by having young educated Papuan and New Guinean to assist them
Mr. Littler
- Kaibelt although illiterate, feels slighted to be A.M.M. as he is a very influential citizen
- nearly resigned twelve months ago
Mr. Johnson
- Tei Abal improving, reads and writes Pidgin
- Olewale somewhat critical of M.M.’s
Mr. Littler
- Complained that [they] spend too much time away from electorates
Mr. Johnson
- House does not criticize M.M.’s
- Electorates’ view is that a member is to represent the people not sit in Konedobu office and drive around in official car
- If shopped around country with a system of some appointed ministers without electoral base would probably get a good deal of support5
Paper B10:-Role Of Select Committee6
Mr. Johnson
- Arek did complain {re announcement of increased delegations to M.M.’s}7—thought Minister should have told him beforehand
- Committee could recommend that M.M.’s and A.M.M.’s have powers superior to Directors
Paper B11 :-Role Of Official Members On Select Committee
Mr. Johnson
- Committee will be kept on tracks regarding keeping the House informed of its proceedings and making no recommendations to Minister without concurrence of the House
- Johnson been remiss re briefing himself because of other pressing tasks and has had to leave this to Littler
- No problem in deferring an item for conclusion at later committee meeting
Secretary
- How do you stand in the Committee?
Mr. Johnson
- Preferable we adopt role of treating items on merits rather than on instructions
- Highly unpopular to say conclusion should be deferred until instructions received
- Tei Abal asked Arek whether Pangu member
- Arek said not a member but sometimes voted with Pangu because he agreed with their viewpoint
- Discussions not dominated by Chairman to date, he has been very uncertain
- Executive officer been unable to help him greatly
- Guise and Arek very close
- Lussick rather vocal
- Two Highlanders most conservative and strongly oppose any radical proposals
- Mola not attended very much
- Olewale and Oala-Rarua speak most
- Olewale has a great deal of ability and will eventually join Pangu
Paper B12:—Basic Present Position
Mr. Johnson
- Territory in a transition stage and where it is possible must always take advice of the A.E.C. and House
- Will circulate copies of Administrative Arrangements under Section 258
Secretary
- Section 25 could be re-written
Mr. Johnson
- New party will have all ministers and a majority in the House
- Will have situation where necessary to take all legislation to party to seek its support and it will have some discipline
- Will be easier to legislate initially but more difficult in the longer term
Secretary
- New party is bound to force a clearing of the existing financial arrangements
Paper B13:—Commitiee Meeting With Minister In February
Secretary
- Minister envisages broad ranging discussions in an informal manner
Mr. Johnson
- Time catching up fast and Committee wants to go [to] the people as soon as possible for obvious reasons
- Wants to take some ideas to the people and need to know what the Minister feels about them
Secretary
- Minister wants to talk of virtues of ministerial system not presidential system
Mr. Johnson
- A combination of Ministers from inside and outside legislature could be considered, e.g. Tanzania which has some ministers from outside House and some from inside
Secretary
- It must be demonstrated that suitable people exist outside House who could serve
Mr. Johnson
- Young men from outside who9 have been away from electorate too long.
- Beware if party system introduced could get party hacks introduced by indirect election or nomination
- Tanzania has maximum of three outside ministers and I believe [we] may get some feeling in the Territory for a mixed ministry
Secretary
- Does Committee understand the difference between the Minister expressing a personal view as opposed to a Government view?
- After having met the Minister, been on tour of Territory, formulated its views, placed them before House—then would be the time to meet 3 or 4 Ministers and seek some definite Government positions
Mr. Johnson
- Committee can only make formal approaches to Minister after the House has approved
- If radical recommendations made they are sure to be rejected
- Committee inclined to regard Minister as able to say ‘yes’ or ‘no’ himself
Secretary
- Should not expect too much of yes/no discussions but a preliminary exchange
Mr. Johnson
- Committee will be flattered to talk to the Minister
- Arek’s greatest fear is that House will remove him from chairmanship if he displays too radical an approach
Secretary
- Minister interested in bi-cameral system with some regional base
Paper B.1—Parliamentary Organisation—Unitary & Federal
Secretary
- Administration very strong on the need for a strong central government
- Been unable to get a firm statement from the Government that they will continue to administer the Territory as a single unit
Mr. Johnson
- Must be some regional representation, but dislike growth of strong Local Government Councils
Secretary
- Agree we must avoid overmuch regional focus
Mr. Johnson
- A very divisive tendency if too much power to regional Local Government Councils
Mr. Ballard
- The word Federation can mean a great deal. In Malaysia one does not have sovereign States.
Mr. Johnson
- Local Government Councils have already wide powers subject only to the Local Government Commissioner
- Could gerrymander boundary and over-represent areas which are clearly defined, e.g. Tolai
Secretary
- A second chamber could provide some balancing of regional interests.
- Got to feel one’s way to solution on this
Mr. Johnson
- Every regional group will seek to be over-represented
Mr. Ballard
- Must examine this in context of sharing power between centre and L.G.C.’s
Mr. Johnson
- Can sell a second House on regional representation
- Not sure whether this should be elected by regional Local Government Councils
- By and large locals are all in favour of L.G.C.’s which are clearly identifiable sources of power
- Presently a tendency to see the Government as ‘them’ and not yet identified as ‘us’.
- ‘Will you want in the future all the power concentrated in the hands of other e.g. statutory bodies out of your control[?]’ is a point not sufficiently accepted to date by the local politicians.
Paper B.2—Parliamentary Organisation—Unicameral & Bicameral
Secretary
- What is the feeling re regional electorates
Mr. Johnson
- People think they are satisfactory
- Believe that they will stick to regional electorates with some educational qualifications not necessarily the existing ones.
Mr. Littler
- Heard complaint on number of Europeans elected
Mr. Johnson
- There is tendency to connect Europeans with educational qualifications requirement.
- It manifest that European members do more for their electorates than indigenous members and the feeling that if you want to get something done go to the Regional member is an all too frequent outlook.
- Consequently difficult to get rid of regional electorates
Mr. Littler
- Suggest an age qualification of 30
Mr. Johnson
- I think a second chamber is saleable as a place to put educated people
- Will this make a second House any different from the lower House?
Secretary
- By making it indirect election reduces scope for demagogic people
- Likely to get more literate people
- If someone comes up with better proposal for this election other than through L.G.C.’s this will need consideration
- Prime object is to get better considered legislation
- I presume Committee won’t get to second chamber consideration until well on in discussions
- It is a complication to the system
Mr. Johnson
- There are strong objections to second chamber, but it does have some advantages
- N.B. Department to prepare paper on how second chambers are elected.
Mr. Littler
- Could have base of District Electorates
Secretary
- Certainly a minimum age limit appears desirable
Mr. Ballard
- Got to slow down passage of legislation and resolutions although accepted that to date Government been offender in this regard
Secretary
- Districts as electoral base got some possibilities
- Minister thinks Senate here frustrated by members of Executive in upper House—if didn’t have members of executive in Senate then much less likely to toe party line.
Paper B.3—Position Of The Judiciary
Mr. Johnson
- No one going to raise judicial problems
Paper B.4—Relationship Of Executive To Legislature And Organisation Of Executive
Mr. Johnson
- A feeling amongst many electors that where their member is appointed M.M. or A.M.M. then they should proceed to another election
Secretary
- A Party arrangement could greatly help this situation
Mr. Johnson
- Ministers three out of four weeks in Moresby and therefore considered a bad local representative
- Probably lose Toliman and Silas in 1972
Secretary
- Do we know of any devices which would assist Ministers with electorate work in the Papua and New Guinea environment?
Mr. Johnson
- When trying to build A.E.C. got to spend a lot of time in Moresby
- We are too busy creating an Executive which can be seen to be operating
Secretary
- In our society without highly organised Party system many Ministers would not survive.
Discussions 9/12/69
Mr. Johnson
- Basic problem is not going to be the content of these papers but rather how we handle the material
Mr. Ballard
- Two alternate ways of having appointed Ministers
(i) Appointed from right outside House by the Executive
(ii) appointed by the House to the House
- Australian Ministers and Senators have rigid view on need to have an electoral base
Mr. Johnson
- Possibility of Cabinet itself making appointment of outside Ministers
- An alternative the House could appoint a proportion of members who aren’t elected
Mr. Ballard
- Danger that this could become a way of pushing extremists into office without electoral support
Mr. Johnson
- Collective responsibility by Cabinet in making unpopular decisions is quite foreign to traditional ways
Mr. Ballard
- Think you could have trouble with appointed Ministers
Mr. Johnson
- Could Head of State nominate the appointed members?
- Committee will get no concrete positions on this for at least 12 months
Mr. Ballard
- Make sure the need for electoral base is discussed by Committee with Minister
Mr. Johnson
- My guess that some form of indirect election or nomination of some of the Executive will be put quite strongly
- N.B. Department to prepare a paper on how this has operated elsewhere.
Paper B.5—Possible Developments Within Limits Of Present P.N.G. Act
Mr. Ballard
- Not much need to expand on Section 25 until one goes to self-government
Mr. Johnson
- One could still go to self-government by convention under existing provisions of Act.
- Under Section 2410 could contemplate an increase in M.M.’s but not A.M.M.’s.
Mr. Ballard
- No one is going to object to alteration of the numbers of M.M.’s, A.M.M.’s.
Mr. Johnson
- Would Government agree to increase M.M.’s and delete A.M:M.’s completely?
- Army in Moresby been keen to have Minister—but I don’t think this discussed with Canberra.
Mr. Ballard
- Case for having M.M.’s covering whole range of Government activity
- A.M.M.’s only in reserved areas
- A.M.M. for Treasury
Mr. Johnson
- In reserved areas can’t have M.M.
- Increased number of M.M.’s to cover all non-reserved and some other form for reserved areas—really want another name but the same privileges and salaries as M.M.’s
- Would Section 25(c) need to be amended?
Mr. Ballard
- An A.M.M. can still put up recommendations
Mr. Johnson
- Have to do something to inflate A.M.M.’s
Mr. Ballard
- We need to do three things
(i) look at reserved Departments—have we been too careful to date?
(ii) M.M.M’s11 in all Departments which are not reserved
(iii) A.M.M.’s in reserved Departments to assist Official Members as in Treasury
- Should Police be represented by official?
Mr. Johnson
- See no need for Police to be reserved
Mr. Ballard
- Administrator’s Department should be reserved
Mr. Johnson
- Administrator’s Department is a conglomeration and requires representation of functions, not of the Department
Mr. Ballard
- Not M.M. for Department as whole, but a M.M. for Police
Mr. Johnson
- If there is a job in it?
- Law is not a reserved Department really—it needs someone who is able to adequately understand it.
Mr. Ballard
- Number of issues—
(i) politician should not control prosecutions—among former British colonies there has been established a position of Director of Public Prosecutions, however this not necessarily a doctrine which Australia would push
(ii) need for a lawyer to be Attomey-General?—could get over this by having a Ministry for Justice.
Mr. Johnson
- Could be A.G. who is Official Member
- Not feel very strongly about this
- Land doesn’t require reservation
Mr. Ballard
- Never been reserved
Mr. Johnson
- Information—problem re use for propaganda
- Treasury objections at present—but not if reach the stage where Australian grant is for specific purposes
Mr. Littler
- Local government should have a larger role—should be M.M.
Mr. Johnson
- Re Langro,12 nobody surprised if at present we don’t appoint another to his position
- If A.M.M.’s to remain must be increase in status of position and their functions
Mr. Ballard
- Is there any possibility of having A.M.M.’s in touch with Commonwealth Departments?
Mr. Johnson
- M.M. for Transport going to require to have discussions with D.C.A.
Mr. Ballard
- explained background of British system of liaison officers to assist Ministers (Johnson considers this is a good idea for a permanent Under-Secretary system to assist Ministers and will consider whether liaison officer practice should be formalised)
Mr. Littler
- Such officer could return to electorate to assist Minister and liaise with Department allowing Minister more time in the electorate
Mr. Johnson
- B.S.I.P. has much of its grant tied to projects
Messrs Ballard & Johnson
- Agree a good case in 1972 for moving to tied aid
Mr. Johnson
- At first not completely, but gradually, e.g. 50 million grant not tied and 70 million tied
- Admin and Department should closely consider this question
- By 1972 should have a clearer view of world aid situation
- Won’t get Port Moresby Supreme Court through House of Assembly
Paper B.6—Party Systems And Their Relation To Executive
Mr. Johnson
- Two reasons for establishment of Ministerial Nominations Committee—
(i) because no Parties
(ii) no link between Cabinet {and parties}
- If Party with majority then it elects Ministerial Nominations Committee
- one way out unless Party has a thumping majority is to give some note13 to minority groups
- In initial stages at least won’t get rigid Party discipline
Mr. Ballard
- Thinking of some middle position with a balancing of House of Assembly and Administration viewpoints—basically a bridging arrangement on both sides
Mr. Johnson
- Assuming ‘Country Party’14 gets off the ground15 have a majority in House[;] possible leaders Lokoloko, Giregire, Tei Abel contending for position
- It would seem desirable that precedent be established that minority groups have some representation on Executive
- Could be large regions unrepresented if a strictly Party system adhered to
- Could write an understanding but not rules—establish precedents if possible that minority groups have representation in the Executive
Mr. Ballard
- a minority group opposed to the Administration would stay out anyway
- A ‘Country Party’ might be in accord with Admin. views
- but should not establish precedents on basis that this type of party will always be in power.
Paper B.7—Official Members
Mr. Johnson
- If Official Members abstain, 10 votes down the drain in that if officials vote M.M.’s and A.M.M.’s always feel obliged to follow Government policy
- Personally thinks Official Members should not vote
- Precedent generally in other situations is that if an Official Member then should be an active participant and therefore vote.
- If you want to retain O.M.’s for some time then certainly more saleable not to have vote
- Minister could always establish by convention Official Members don’t vote
Mr. Ballard
- Could present as part of package deal with M.M. system change.
- Prime reason for Official Members is to ensure that Government is able to have its views adequately presented
Mr. Johnson
- House decides views on rhetoric not logic
- Logic, calm presentation of views doesn’t get one vote
- Official Members of Committee could take the line that they have no objection to having Official Members remain in House, but that the Official Members would not have a vote
- Presently too many Official Members, eliminate two D.D.A.’s
- After 1972 the lobbying will be of parties not individuals
- Possibly leave Deputy Administrators out
Mr. Ballard
- Secretary for Law and Treasurer only essential ones
Mr. Johnson
- In 1972 need to have one generalist, an individual well clued up on Government policy
Mr. Ballard
- Secretary, Administrator’s Department, should be there to answer questions on reserved areas
- In second House need a mouthpiece[;] two official or nominated members, perhaps a Deputy Administrator in each House
Paper B.8—A.E.C. And Ministerial System
Mr. Johnson
- Don’t need all M.M.’s in A.E.C.
Mr. Ballard
- If drop Official Members from House then also be dropped from A.E.C.
Mr. Johnson
- Agreed—bring in officials as special advisers but not voting members.
- Official Members at present sit and refrain from comment until asked
- Number of officials could be reduced, but retain the most senior
- Arek written to all Departmental Heads for their view on M.M. system
- It would seem desirable for Departmental Heads to appear and give their views[;] however Administrator is opposed to this as some may sow some radical ideas
Mr. Ballard
- Departmental Heads should be explaining how the system works at present not putting forward their own views on future developments within the system.
Paper B.9—Regional Electorates—Educational Qualifications
Mr. Johnson
- Generally Committee likely to support retention of regional electorates in some form.
Mr. Littler
- going to get a better known man embracing more than one tribal group.
Mr. Johnson
- Present system gives us a House more difficult to manage
Mr. Ballard
- Under regional electorate system could get more of radical young men
Mr. Littler
- If remove educational qualification may get better known men, e.g. Tei Abal may stand for Regional electorate.
Mr. Johnson
- Believes this question something Official Members could opt out of and not seek to influence committee.
Mr. Littler
- Suggest age qualification plus residential qualification for region, e.g. five to seven years
Mr. Johnson
- If have two Houses then no Regional electorates in lower House
Messrs. Ballard & Johnson
- Lower House of individual electorates, upper Houses of Regional electorates directly elected with residential and age qualifications
Mr. Ballard
- If two Houses it would become more difficult for Commonwealth to impose veto
Mr. Johnson
- Delay in legislation could be severe
- Later on in this House going to have an increasing number of private members’ bills which may need to be disallowed
General Discussion
Mr. Johnson
- Probably get some sort of restricted emergency legislation through[;] however, probably be several determined attempts to adjourn this to next session.
Secretary
- Sees one of the two Deputy Administrators fulfilling a role fully concerned with political affairs and freed from other administrative duties, e.g. this person could be the single Official Member on the A.E.C. and senior Official Member in the House.
The meeting recommenced at 3.45 p.m.following a visit by Messrs. Ballard, Johnson and Littler to the Minister.
Mr. Johnson
- Minister re-iterated his views in favour of a Westminster system
- Minister also agreed that an elected House could elect a small number of outsiders to its own number. He also was amenable to having M.M.’s covering all the non-reserved areas. This would leave about four A.M.M.’s e.g. D.I.E.S., Treasury etc.
Secretary
- The sooner the local politicians start running their own affairs and hence move into reserved areas the better.
- Not interested in retaining reserved departments and the case has to be made for not giving away reserved areas.
- It is likely that the local people will be tougher against their own people than we could afford to be e.g. internal security in Singapore.
Mr. Johnson
- If the Australian Government is willing to give up reserved areas then there will be no reluctance on the part of the Administration to take these up.
Mr. Ballard
- There must be an area within the Department of the Administrator in which the Administration considers developments in the Territory as they relate to Australian rather than Papuan and New Guinean interests.
Secretary
- This would involve a small personal staff.
- In all matters relating to the Territory then there should be an M.M. responsible
- Even the Special Branch should be under the control of a M.M. (subject of course to the direction of the Administrator)
Mr. Johnson
- At present we don’t have one M.M. who could cope with the responsibilities of the Treasury. He would consistently find himself in a position of non-comprehension.
Secretary
- M.M.’s must be given experience and shown that it is not easy. I no longer accept that policy of maintaining reserved areas is necessarily right.
Mr. Johnson
- If this is a negotiable position then we could wait and see what the Committee comes up with. I shall discuss the question of reserved areas with the Administrator.
Secretary
- The Administrator is going to require an assistant Administrator who is his political affairs expert and would not have any administrative authority.
Mr. Johnson
- In the second chamber there will need to be two officials without portfolio. One could perhaps also put an A.M.M. in this chamber.
Mr. Ballard
- Second chamber could lead to a slowing down of legislation.
Secretary
- Doesn’t see any need for a slowing down of legislation. It could be established that the standard time for passage of legislation was two meetings. Sees no reason to be apprehensive of 2nd House causing undue delay to legislation.
- Strongly of the opinion that the Australian Government would not allow the Territory executive to introduce emergency powers without going to the legislature.
[NAA: A452, 1969/5484]
1 Inter alia, the meeting included Warwick Smith, Ballard, Johnson and Littler.
2 In late November, Warwick Smith had phoned Hay in preparation for DOET–Administration discussions and had said: ‘(a) The Minister is developing an attitude which needs to be discussed at some length … (b) The Committee’s proposed programme seems to go a good deal beyond proposals earlier discussed. Is Mr. Morrison perhaps encouraging this? (c) The development in (b), together with the probability that political influence (for example, the Speaker) will be at work on the Committee and trying to direct it in certain ways. Suggest that the role of the Official Members in the Committee will be of considerable importance and that that role will have to be more active than was originally contemplated. The Official Members will need to be able to keep in constant touch with the Department’ (minute, Hay to Johnson, 1 December 1969, NAA: M1866, 4).
3 There had also been complaints in DOET about Morrison. Noting that the provisional program for the Select Committee’s December meeting had Morrison speaking for 30-45 minutes prior to discussion of each topic, David Wheen (position unidentified, DOET) wrote, ‘One wonders, is Morrison the servant of the Committee of vice versa?’. On papers prepared by Morrison, Wheen added: ‘these are not at all “in depth” papers, indeed some are very superficial and tend to be statements of fact or opinion rather than analysis … from a reading of the papers one gets [the] distinct impression that Morrison is talking down to the Committee and being very patronising’ (minute, Wheen to Ballard, 26 November 1969, NAA: A452, 1969/5484).
4 See editorial note ‘Changes to the Papua and New Guinea Act’.
5 Punctuation or words appear to be missing in this sentence.
6 For this and other papers referred to below, see Document 349.
7 See editorial note ‘Administrative delegations and the role of Assistant Administrators: continued debate’.
8 See Document 197.
9 This word is perhaps superfluous.
10 See editorial note ‘Changes to the Papua and New Guinea Act’.
11 This should presumably read ‘M.M.’s’.
12 See footnote 6, Document 325.
13 This should probably read ‘vote’.
14 Presumably, that referred to in footnote 10, Document 321. See also Document 347.
15 Perhaps the words ‘it could’ or ‘it would’ should have been inserted here.